Posted less than an hour ago on FB.
There was also a post a couple of years ago, I guess, concerning Jackie's voice:
"We have an algorithm program at MIT... and we set it to notes on vocal tone and pitch... this girl came out to 99.3 percent average per note....... that was the highest grade out of over a hundred opera and classical crossover singers of any era....... her voice is unreal.... she had minus zero -0 grade on most of her undertones and highs... the minus sign pops up when the computer cannot gauge the note itself... that means lol... that her voice is more exact than the computer...... her gift is not of this world"Back in the day, around early November 2014, this was an exchange on the old Amazon
forum between BillyDick (BD), Friday Bridge (F), A Reader from "Frisco Beach" and
H-Camp (HC), discussing Jackie's vocal range at 14 YO and other aspects of her voice
at that age.
I present this as an adjunct to what was said above!
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BillyDick says:
Question: What is the note value of the high note at the end of her Think Of Me
and the note value of the high note at the end of her Nessun Dorma at BGT. She
has not sung Nessun Dorma for several years and the word on this forum was that
it could harm her voice if sung continually (like at her concerts).
My question is: Would singing the high note at the end of Think Of Me at her
future concerts have the same effect?
Friday Bridge replied:
BD, I think it is more of a matter of intensity of the whole piece of music, not
just one (or three) notes.
She can apparently sing a few notes in practice that are above her performance
range (B5), and both ND and TOM are in her performance range which seems to be
topped out at Bflat5 for now (at 14 yo). (TOM top note is Bflat5 while ND's top
note was an Aflat5). However, there has been no further word on this for about
a year.
ND is hard to sing even for a tenor due to the requirement to hold that three note
sequence for 12 seconds while performing with power. Women have smaller lungs, and
a need to very carefully manage their resource to pull that off. And a kid? without
a mic? impossible. Jackie does (did) it with a mic and careful planning while singing
to build within the context of the entire aria to that three note sequence and be able
to hold it. ND is a pretty intense piece of work. The surprise note at the end of TOM
is a piece of cake by comparison.
A Reader from "Frisco Beach" replied:
The high note at the end of TOM is Bb5. The high note of ND is G#5 (= Ab5), one tone
lower. I agree with Friday B that the need for a prolonged 3rd vincerò is one of the
most difficult things about ND. In the original tenor, it's D4-B4-A5; sopranos usually
sing it an octave higher, but Jackie lowered it a minor 3rd, singing B4-G#5-F#5.
(BTW, I say sharps because the key of B is 5 sharps. In LOTS of songs I'd call them
flats because the songs are in keys that use flats. E.g., the original PJ & OMBC were
in Ab, 4 flats, & lots of other Jackie songs, including TLP, are in Db, 5 flats. The
highest notes of all those songs were the same, Ab5 = G#5. That includes ND, the
original PJ & OMBC, TLP, the SSB on Thanksgiving, Believe, AM, MOTN, etc.)
The highest note Jackie has sung in performance was a brief B5 near the end of Hymn of
the Worlds at ONOD.
Any high note could be potentially harmful if it's sung with inadequate breath support
from below. From what I hear, Jackie's has been good lately. Since she doesn't like to
practice, though, I'd feel better if she did pilates, or maybe a few hundred sit-ups,
every day, LOL.
A Reader from "Frisco Beach" replied to Friday Bridge:
Friday B
"By the way, if I am not mistaken, the higher the frequency of a note, the more power
is required to project it."
F: Yes. High notes literally have less air coming out per second, just like low notes
have more air coming out. Also, less air comes out in falsetto than modal register
(due to different patterns of vocal fold vibration). So the singer makes up for it on
the high notes by increasing pressure (breath support) from below. Sumi Jo is a good
example, because she really powers the high notes. Jackie needs to keep improving this.
H-Camp says:
Hi BD,
I'm just trying to catch up so haven't read everything, but thought I'd put my various
cents in regarding your question.
There are a number of things that make certain arias more difficult, but primary among
them is the tessitura, or where the primary line of the song is on the vocal range, and
how the notes are put together. Range includes the highest and lowest notes of a song,
tessitura is where most of the notes are on the range. So, ND has a difficult tessitura
in that it doesn't allow for resting. There is a constant flow of difficult notes.
TOM has one section that is supposed to be a coloratura section, which can be very
dangerous for young voices, but Jackie sings it at a speed that sort of takes it out of
the coloratura style. Coloratura is fast notes in succession, or at least a number of
notes closely placed together. That's not how Jackie does TOM (it's not how Rossum does
it either). The dangerous thing about coloratura is if the young singer uses the throat
to go quickly from note to note instead of adjusting with breath/abdomen. But that's only
an issue on true coloratura, which can actually be even more difficult than an aria like
ND if done correctly.
Now, to the danger aspect.
There are two primary issues that can be dangerous for classical singers (including those
with mics), but especially for younger singers. (1) Singing out of their range or tessitura
and (2) Singing with inadequate support.
"Support" means producing a steady breath on which the tone sits and is projected (whether
into a mic or not). By using the breath, the singer does not use the throat. Protecting the
throat muscles is the most important thing any singer can do. It has nothing to do with
lung size or body size - it's all about abdominal strength, core strength and the
coordination of breath and sound. Because young singers have underdeveloped core muscles,
their support mechanism is less and it makes singing certain things more dangerous.
ND needs massive core strength to sustain the steady stream of difficult notes (and deal
with how they're put together, since going up or down from certain laryngeal positions/notes
is more difficult than doing the same from others). Because Jackie used a mic she needed
less strength, but she never was able to demonstrate total support. It was always
technically shaky and, yes, dangerous.
TOM is much easier overall, particularly with the slowed "colortura." However, the
final high note on her recording is very tense, and I think just on the edge of her
range. Time has passed since she recorded it, so she may be more comfortable with it.
But, if it's as it sounded on the recording, I doubt we'll hear that particular note
a lot. It took a lot for her to reach it.
To underscore, the main issue is protecting the throat muscles. Using a mic creates a
significant level of extra leeway, but not enough for certain arias to be really safe.
BillyDick said:
H-Camp: Whoa!!! That's a lot of information to digest all at once. First - may I have
your permission to save this post for study at a later time? And second - I would assume
that everything that you just expounded upon pertains to a 14 yo Jackie. We all know
how her voice has changed to reach this stage, from a 10 yo to a 14 yo, but what will
happen as she ages and grows into an adult body? Will her range change, or is that
a condition of diet, exercise and practice? And about the throat and vocal folds:
I know, as a guitarist, that after awhile, the finger pads harden to make it easier
and less painful to press the strings. I believe the same thing happens to the lips
of players of wind instruments. Does the same phenomena happen to the note producing
mechanism of singers? And if so, what would the effect be of larger lungs and a
conditioned throat?
H-Camp says:
Hi BD,
Yes, of course, feel free to save.
Yes, what I wrote is pertinent to singers of any age, and when I say young singers,
I mean all singers under 20 or so.
"Will her range change, or is that a condition of diet, exercise and practice?"
Tessitura usually changes as a young singer ages, yes. Practice and caring for
your body also is important to maintaining a wide range, and developing a wide range.
"Does the same phenomena happen to the note producing mechanism of singers? And
if so, what would the effect be of larger lungs and a conditioned throat?"
No, it's not really the same, but as the singer grows and uses the larynx in
certain ways (and core, and throat muscles), they become trained to move in
a certain way. It's like learning a dance. When you start, you feel
uncoordinated, but eventually your legs and body start to figure it out and
develop muscle memory. This is what happens over time with the muscle
structures needed to sing.
Larger lungs have little effect. The efficiency of the use of air and the
core strength is what has the effect.
A Reader from "Frisco Beach" replies to HC:
HC
HC: "There are two primary issues that can be dangerous for classical singers
(including those with mics), but especially for younger singers. (1) Singing
out of their range or tessitura and (2) Singing with inadequate support."
F: Agree. IYAM, Mariah Carey definitely had problem #2, & probably #1 as well.
Jackie should try to avoid this at all costs.
If you compare the vids with Mariah vs opera singers, Mariah's notes generally
sound inadequately supported. Also, she's probably a natural alto who just
wanted to show off her whistle register notes. Her voice is damaged now.
I agree with most of the rest of your post. We'll see about Jackie & more high
notes.
If she sings the Rach Vocalise in the original key, I THINK its range is 2
octaves, C#4 to C#6 (at least as sung by KTK here:)
Perhaps Jackie will lower the key. There are lots of arrangements of the piece.
Its chord & key changes are complex & gorgeous (which we expect with Rachmaninoff).
HC (in a later post): "Not necessarily."
F: I know. I was just talking in general, the differences between lower & higher
notes. Most physics.
I hope Jackie does some kind of truncal support exercises. Her voice will last
longer if she does.
Friday Bridge says:
Hi Rick,
Jackie is clearly a soprano. A soprano with a huge range, but a soprano. When
she sings down in the fourth register C4 (middle C) to C5, [or lower] she can
add a ton of color to her voice, but mezzos have a heavier more resonating
voice. Many people like the color, which seems to be where the misunderstanding
begins. Her voice is absolutely beautiful with her coloration, and I think
many people who prefer her coloration to all others, seem to think or hope
that this is her unforced, natural range. Not so. Adding "color" to that
register is work for her.
There is a type of soprano known as a choral soprano, where the top of the
range is A5, just below B5 and C6. Mormon Tabernacle Choir sopranos fit
into this category. I think Jackie can hit C6, in fact, we've been told she can
hit D6 over a year ago as a part of her practice range [E3 to D6]. Her
clearest, most unforced voice is in the fifth register. She normally tops out
at A#5.
Friday Bridge says: 11/10/2014
When Jackie was 10 YO, she had no issues with her voice. The pitch, range and
tone, being as incredible as they were, suggested no issues. That, plus the
fact that at the age of 10 YO, a throat is so flexible that passagio issues
are trivial to non-existent. As a result of these factors, many people were
talking about her voice as being truly spectacular and NATURAL, [emphasis on
NATURAL] so much so that at that time, it was both early and difficult to get
her training that would improve her voice. [you can't start training to control
passagio issues until they arrive at about 13 YO +/-.]
In the recent past, as she matured, her throat has predictably begun to give
her problems with Passagio, plus that her tone MIGHT be getting a bit less pure,
that is to say, more complex. She herself is maturing and performing with slightly
more personal reserve. The passagio and any possible tonal quality issues now
affect the apparent degree of perfection we feel we hear, and third, that her
increasing personal reserve is beginning to break that link she had with her
audience, many of whom felt her voice was virtually a channel from 'the divine'.
Lately, for some reason, she has been talking about her level of commitment to
music, leaving many with the sense that she doesn't have a sufficient commitment
to work on her voice, which is a worry to some people, because she does have an
adult throat, and all of the control issues an adult throat presents. An adult
throat DOES have problems, and DOES require more effort to control it. Hopefully,
I am overstating this issue, and also that she is purposely underplaying this
issue, that she is in fact planning to work more diligently than she has been
willing to say she has, in order to keep up with the proper maintenance an adult
throat requires.
Also, "having a natural voice, and I train seldomly" suggests, of course, that
she is a veritable Natural, but some will interpret this as: "I will limit how
hard I work at it". I will tell you truly that she IS a natural, but the flip
side of this position is that she has had the support of a great many musical
talents, and it would be best not to shake THEIR confidence in her dedication
to her craft.*
Perception or Reality? I don't know. Bottom line, she now has an adult throat
with all the new difficulties that go with it. She will hopefully step up her
efforts to keep her vocal control in line with having such a great voice. She
can either do it quietly, soto voce, or she can make a big deal of getting the
training. Her choice, but somewhere along the line, I am concerned about the
viability of a third choice, that of staying "all organic".
A Reader from "Frisco Beach" says:
I have a question for both of you (HC & Friday B). In With Or Without You, the
line identical to the song title starts at 3:44, G5 down the scale to Bb4.
Unless she's singing G5 in modal register (probably impossible for Jackie) or
Bb4 in falsetto register (unlikely), there *has* to be a passaggio as she's
coming down. Where do you two hear it?
As I said, I hear it between Eb5 & D5, but Jackie is so good, it's difficult
to be sure. (Remember, I define "register" as "pattern of vocal fold
vibration" with resultant changes in timbre &, usually, volume, - & nothing
else.) (There are 4, & only 4, registers of the human voice, & the "middle
register" doesn't exist as a discrete pattern of vocal fold vibration. Yes,
I know the vocal pedagogists disagree, at least for females; let them prove
it with flexible laryngoscopies.)
F: Uh-oh. You're asking me to describe it? Ouch. OK, here goes.
Most singing is done in modal & falsetto registers. Speaking is mostly in
modal ("normal") register.
In modal, the entire vocal cords (folds) are vibrating. Higher notes are
sung by stretching (lengthening) the folds, increasing tension.
In falsetto register, which is for singing higher notes, the bases of the
vocal folds (which include the vocal ligaments, which are relatively tough)
are relaxed, shortened & motionless. Only the mucosal (soft tissue) edges
of the folds are vibrating. Again, increasing length & tension of the folds
give you higher notes.
Unless singers are highly trained, falsetto register is about 20% softer than
modal & has fewer overtones (& often an "airy" sound in untrained singers).
It's the differences in timbre that I can hear (in every singer I've ever
listened to).
There is always a "break" ("passaggio" in Italian, "passaggi" plural) between
these 2 patterns of vocal fold vibration. Classical singers try to hide them.
There is an overlap where notes can be sung in either register, about an
octave in females (D4 to F#4 up to D5 to F#5; Jackie's is toward the low
end of that range) & as little as a third in males (C#4 up to F#4).
(All of these are approximate. The numbers come from the piano; C4 is middle
C, the 4th C on the piano, counting from the bottom; the lowest notes on the
piano, B-Bb-A, are numbered zero.).
I've never heard an adult female sing above F#5 in modal register, though some
may be able to. Male opera singers don't usually sing above F#4 in modal
register (see, e.g., Pavarotti on "covering" on YouTube), but I've heard pop
singers go higher. I've heard Paul Hewson (Bono) sing Bb4 in modal when he was
younger, but maybe that's part of the reason his voice is going, LOL.
The middle "register" is the overlap where singers (especially females) can
sing in either register, but it's not a discrete pattern of vocal fold
vibration. Vocal pedagogists use chest, middle & head "voice" for modal,
overlap & falsetto register, but again, some try to claim that the middle
register is a discrete pattern of VF vibration. It isn't. It's also imprecise,
because low, middle & high notes resonate in different places, & some people
use this to define voice.
Wiki is pretty good on this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_register